Talk:Lucifer

Lucifer is a title not a name

Lucifer means bringer of light/bearer of light. It's a powerful title given by God until the angel opposed God and was given the title Satan, meaning adversary. Jesus later claims to be the morning star, Lucifer. It's not the demons name. 50.47.109.128 (talk) 01:45, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Source? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 01:54, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

What is the essential difference between a name and a title? Presumably, we would say, that a name is a label that attaches to an individual personally; and a title relates to their function, or a honorific, or some other qualification, which may change. However, in different cultures from ours, names can be subject to alteration in response to their bearer's changing function (e.g., the 18th Century Japanese artist, originally called Tokitarō, later named Shunrō, still later Tawaraya Sōri, then Hokusai Tomisa, and finally shortened to Hokusai, by which name he is now world-renowned). Even in Western culture, for example, a royal heir may change their baptismal name for a regnal name by which they are to be known after coronation; and conventionally, a woman's surname can change to her husband's upon marriage, without need of involving the law. Names, in fact, really are titles.

Nuttyskin (talk) 10:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Lucifer is the name of the ancient Latin/Roman/Italian god of the morning star (version of the Greek Phosphorus).--dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 03:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

too Christianity-focused

Lucifer is the name of the ancient Latin/Roman/Italian god of the morning star (version of the Greek Phosphorus), which (predating Christianity) should be stated in the beginning section, but no longer is: this article is too Christianity-focused.--dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 03:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

1st century "Palestinian Judaism"

The Kingdom of Judea was not renamed to Syria-Palaestina by the Roman Empire until the 2nd century. It is therefore historically incorrect to refer to "Palestinian Judaism". This can be easily verified by referring to the Wikipedia page or any history textbook about the region. As it stands, there is no source to support the claim of 1st century "Palestinian Judaism". Ausgothika (talk) 22:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

"The ancient Romans pinned the name on the Land of Israel. In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea’s second insurrection, the Romans renamed the province Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y’hudim and in Latin Judaei) and the province (the Hebrew name of which was Y’hudah). “Palaestina” referred to the Philistines, whose home base had been on the Mediterranean coast." - https://www.hudson.org/node/44363

"In 132 the emperor Hadrian decided to build a Roman colony, Aelia Capitolina, on the site of Jerusalem. The announcement of his plan, as well as his ban on circumcision (revoked later, but only for the Jews), provoked a much more serious uprising, the Second Jewish Revolt, led by Bar Kokhba. It was ruthlessly repressed by Julius Severus; according to certain accounts, almost 1,000 villages were destroyed and more than half a million people killed. In Judaea proper the Jews seem to have been virtually exterminated, but they survived in Galilee, which, like Samaria, appears to have held aloof from the revolt. Tiberias in Galilee became the seat of the Jewish patriarchs. The province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina (later simply called Palaestina), and, according to Eusebius of Caeseria (Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 6), no Jew was thenceforth allowed to set foot in Jerusalem or the surrounding district." - https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Roman-Palestine

"As early as 300 BCE, the term Judaea [Judea] appears, most likely to describe the area where the population was predominantly Jewish. It was distinguished from Palestine and Syria. Coins with the word Judaea or something similar were produced at the time of the first Jewish revolt (66-70 CE). In the 2nd century CE, the Romans crushed the revolt of Shimon Bar Kokhba (132 CE), during which Jerusalem and Judea were conquered, and the area of Judea was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel." - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/origin-of-quot-palestine-quot 123.243.94.178 (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Despite multiple sources being provided to support the claim that the region was not renamed "Palestine" until the 2nd century, the edit continues to be reverted with absolutely no citation for "Palestinian Judaism". Requesting that those who wish to revert it to "Palestinian Judaism" please cite this. Ausgothika (talk) 00:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

What you miss is that your edit is displayed to Wikipedians, but not to the usual reader of Wikipedia. So no, nobody has approved your edit. A Wikipedian in good standing would have to approve it in order to get displayed to the usual reader.

I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm not even anti-Zionistic. It a simple matter that mainstream Bible scholars write "Palestine", so Wikipedia also writes "Palestine". tgeorgescu (talk) 02:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

But when mainstream Bible scholars refer to Palestine, they're talking about the region.

For example, and to your point, Wikipedia has an article about the historical demographics of the region of Palestine that goes back at least to the first century CE.

They're not talking about every single culture, country, or people that has been there.

For example and to Ausgothika's point, we wouldn't say the Bar Kokhba Revolt was a Palestinian revolt, or that it was a Jewish revolt in Palestine.

The reason for not calling it "first-century Palestinian Judaism" is that Judaism can commonly be said to have had a "first-century" version. But it isn't commonly said to have a "Palestinian" version, "first-century" or otherwise.

No matter what you call the place, that's not a known version of Judaism. Phrasing it this way is liable to confuse and/or mislead readers. Oakling (talk) 08:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Having trawled through Google results for the phrase, I'll add a cautious correction. There IS a thing called "Palestinian Judaism": but it's a rather niche synonym for what's commonly called Rabbinic Judaism.

The phrase "Palestinian Judaism" is sometimes used in Christian theological and historical studies, when examining the differences between Pauline Christianity and first-century Judaism.

For instance, the book Paul and Palestinian Judaism uses the two terms interchangeably, and also sometimes uses "Palestinian (Rabbinic) Judaism."

I realized, in the process, that not only does the citation seem to be for the sentence which ends the paragraph, not for the rather vague one about "Palestinian Judaism," but also it's for a book in German that I don't have access to.

I'm looking now for more concrete information about where the "fallen angel" concept originated. Will follow up. Oakling (talk) 09:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay. The academic consensus seems to be that the idea of Lucifer as fallen angel did come from Jewish works of the time, but from pseudepigraphic Jewish texts (particularly the Vita Adae et Evae) rather than from mainstream Judaism.

Having determined this, I came back to this article and noticed that it actually says exactly that, two sections earlier:

"An association of Isaiah 14:12–18 with a personification of evil, called the devil, developed outside of mainstream Rabbinic Judaism in pseudepigrapha, and later in Christian writings, particularly with the apocalypses."

In the section between the two, it says:

"The metaphor of the morning star that Isaiah 14:12 applied to a king of Babylon gave rise to the general use of the Latin word for "morning star", capitalized, as the original name of the devil before his fall from grace, linking Isaiah 14:12 with Luke 10 ("I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven") and interpreting the passage in Isaiah as an allegory of Satan's fall from heaven."

Taken in the context of the full article, it seems both redundant and slightly confusing to then say:

"The equation of Lucifer with the fallen angel probably occurred in 1st century Palestinian Judaism. The church fathers brought the fallen lightbringer Lucifer into connection with the Devil on the basis of a saying of Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (10.18 EU): "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning.""

Given that:

1. The section immediately before "Interpretations" already made the Satan-lightning-Lucifer connection;

2. The rest of the article consistently uses the term "Rabbinic Judaism" instead of "Palestinian Judaism";

3. Not only does the article explain earlier that this concept came from Judaism, but it did it in more detail earlier,

I propose to just delete these two sentences from the article. And in fact it's 3am and I'm just going to do it; revert me if you must, but I think this is the best solution. Oakling (talk) 10:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Lucifer

lucifers name dose not translated to devil Lucifer actually translates to bringer of light or light barer hence his full name lucifer morning star 92.41.48.214 (talk) 13:59, 30 November 2024 (UTC)